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	<title>Comments on: More Thoughts On Angry Chicks In Leather</title>
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	<description>Bird of Ill Repute</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 08:17:53 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Black Gate &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A Bout of Aboutness: Urban Fantasy and Sword-and-Planet</title>
		<link>http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2008/12/more-thoughts-on-angry-chicks-in-leather/comment-page-2/#comment-55534</link>
		<dc:creator>Black Gate &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A Bout of Aboutness: Urban Fantasy and Sword-and-Planet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 05:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/?p=927#comment-55534</guid>
		<description>[...] Lilith Saintcrow, underdefining the genre in a recent guest column at Pat&#8217;s Hotlist (with a followup at her own site): Chicks kicking ass. Well, leather-clad chicks kicking ass. Leather-clad chicks kicking ass in an [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Lilith Saintcrow, underdefining the genre in a recent guest column at Pat&#8217;s Hotlist (with a followup at her own site): Chicks kicking ass. Well, leather-clad chicks kicking ass. Leather-clad chicks kicking ass in an [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Carrie&#8217;s Analysis of Urban Fantasy Part III: Deconstructing Urban Fantasy &#171; Filling the Well</title>
		<link>http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2008/12/more-thoughts-on-angry-chicks-in-leather/comment-page-2/#comment-55489</link>
		<dc:creator>Carrie&#8217;s Analysis of Urban Fantasy Part III: Deconstructing Urban Fantasy &#171; Filling the Well</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/?p=927#comment-55489</guid>
		<description>[...] women in paranormal fiction.  Lilith Saintcrow talks about Angry Chicks in Leather, with a follow up.      Posted by carriev Filed in urban fantasy [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] women in paranormal fiction.  Lilith Saintcrow talks about Angry Chicks in Leather, with a follow up.      Posted by carriev Filed in urban fantasy [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MaxL</title>
		<link>http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2008/12/more-thoughts-on-angry-chicks-in-leather/comment-page-2/#comment-55386</link>
		<dc:creator>MaxL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/?p=927#comment-55386</guid>
		<description>&quot;[2] Like I said yesterday, don’t even f!cking pull up the straw man about how I must “obviously” hate men. I LIKE men. I’ve dated quite a few, married one, gave birth to one, and am raising two. I like men a lot.&quot;

I think what you&#039;re doing here is handing your enemies the means to destroy you.

Okay, slight exaggeration. What I mean is that while I don&#039;t think you&#039;re sexist, if I *did* this passage would reinforce that belief. Because it reads a lot like, &quot;Some of my best friends are black.&quot;

Which is unfortunate, and only serves to distract from your argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;[2] Like I said yesterday, don’t even f!cking pull up the straw man about how I must “obviously” hate men. I LIKE men. I’ve dated quite a few, married one, gave birth to one, and am raising two. I like men a lot.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think what you&#8217;re doing here is handing your enemies the means to destroy you.</p>
<p>Okay, slight exaggeration. What I mean is that while I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re sexist, if I *did* this passage would reinforce that belief. Because it reads a lot like, &#8220;Some of my best friends are black.&#8221;</p>
<p>Which is unfortunate, and only serves to distract from your argument.</p>
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		<title>By: AJ Church</title>
		<link>http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2008/12/more-thoughts-on-angry-chicks-in-leather/comment-page-2/#comment-55384</link>
		<dc:creator>AJ Church</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/?p=927#comment-55384</guid>
		<description>Like many of those commenting here, I thought your essay was spot on and was surprised by the vehement reaction by mostly male readers [who hadn&#039;t even read a UF novel and are probably threatened by any strong female]. As a writer and reader of this genre, I love the direction it&#039;s going. For years I&#039;ve written and closeted novels with strong female voices because agents told me they couldn&#039;t be categorized (and thus marketed/sold). They weren&#039;t horror or romance, so what were they?

Yes, there have been strong female voices in novels in the past, but always they seemed to be standing in for or supporting &quot;their man.&quot; Now they stand on their own. A woman doesn&#039;t need a man to define or defend her, and like a man, she should bear the full weight of her mistakes, as well as her triumphs, which is what the protags of UF do.

I was a single mother who went into the military in a traditionally-male career field at a time when it wasn&#039;t widely accepted. I put myself through college, raised three sons by myself, and have stood on my own two feet my entire life. And yes, I&#039;d kick anyone&#039;s ass who threatened my family, so these women SPEAK to me.

As for UF not being &quot;literature,&quot; well, call it what you want. Like someone else here said, I&#039;ve spent more money on books in recent years than ever before because I LIKE what&#039;s being written now and believe in supporting the writers who do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like many of those commenting here, I thought your essay was spot on and was surprised by the vehement reaction by mostly male readers [who hadn't even read a UF novel and are probably threatened by any strong female]. As a writer and reader of this genre, I love the direction it&#8217;s going. For years I&#8217;ve written and closeted novels with strong female voices because agents told me they couldn&#8217;t be categorized (and thus marketed/sold). They weren&#8217;t horror or romance, so what were they?</p>
<p>Yes, there have been strong female voices in novels in the past, but always they seemed to be standing in for or supporting &#8220;their man.&#8221; Now they stand on their own. A woman doesn&#8217;t need a man to define or defend her, and like a man, she should bear the full weight of her mistakes, as well as her triumphs, which is what the protags of UF do.</p>
<p>I was a single mother who went into the military in a traditionally-male career field at a time when it wasn&#8217;t widely accepted. I put myself through college, raised three sons by myself, and have stood on my own two feet my entire life. And yes, I&#8217;d kick anyone&#8217;s ass who threatened my family, so these women SPEAK to me.</p>
<p>As for UF not being &#8220;literature,&#8221; well, call it what you want. Like someone else here said, I&#8217;ve spent more money on books in recent years than ever before because I LIKE what&#8217;s being written now and believe in supporting the writers who do it.</p>
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		<title>By: Arilou Skiff</title>
		<link>http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2008/12/more-thoughts-on-angry-chicks-in-leather/comment-page-2/#comment-55382</link>
		<dc:creator>Arilou Skiff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/?p=927#comment-55382</guid>
		<description>Oh yeah, one thing that might be considered with this new wave is that, well, morally ambigious women kicking ass really isn&#039;t new.

It&#039;s been around *at least* since Frank (whoreswhoreswhores... Eh, sorry, can&#039;t resist making fun of him...) Miller. And probably earlier than that. It&#039;s even become something of a cliché in itself. (not that clichés aren&#039;t neccessarily good things) 

If anything the bigger problem is something that people at girl-wonder.org is keen on: Namely that while women can kick ass nowadays, they can only do so as long as they are also sexy. (hence why &quot;hot chicks in leather kicking ass&quot; is kind of bothersome) there&#039;s still a big double-standard there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yeah, one thing that might be considered with this new wave is that, well, morally ambigious women kicking ass really isn&#8217;t new.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s been around *at least* since Frank (whoreswhoreswhores&#8230; Eh, sorry, can&#8217;t resist making fun of him&#8230;) Miller. And probably earlier than that. It&#8217;s even become something of a cliché in itself. (not that clichés aren&#8217;t neccessarily good things) </p>
<p>If anything the bigger problem is something that people at girl-wonder.org is keen on: Namely that while women can kick ass nowadays, they can only do so as long as they are also sexy. (hence why &#8220;hot chicks in leather kicking ass&#8221; is kind of bothersome) there&#8217;s still a big double-standard there.</p>
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		<title>By: Tomas Diaz</title>
		<link>http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2008/12/more-thoughts-on-angry-chicks-in-leather/comment-page-1/#comment-55378</link>
		<dc:creator>Tomas Diaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:06:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/?p=927#comment-55378</guid>
		<description>Interesting ideas.

One thing I want to ask is genre fiction&#039;s ability to show Truth.  Many have speak of how genre fiction can be a place for dialogue, a place for discussion, and a place for brand new ideas to emerge.

But do these ideas have merit, do they show us some Truth about ourselves as citizens of our society or as human beings?  Where we are, where we should be going?  Are they trying to remove barriers between men and women, or trying to define what it means to be a woman, alone, in relation to, and in relationships with, men?

Do genre books, and films for that matter, simply give us questions to come up with our own ideas or stake a claim about a certain Truth?  Either way, we are left to decide our own answers, but the first gives you nothing but the question you already came with.

On the question of gender, I must say that I&#039;m a fan of feisty girls, but one must always wonder what certain authors are trying to do.  Is the purpose of a given author to show that women are no different from men?  What a horrible thing to say!  Women have their own nature which distinguish them from men, otherwise what does it mean to be a woman?

While I think he gets blurry on certain matters, Joss Whedon&#039;s Buffy is a perfect example of a woman trying to be a woman.  There is no &quot;I&#039;m no different from you.&quot;  She is a woman succeeding in being a hero, which is a whole different thing to say.

Thoughts, comments, bashings?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting ideas.</p>
<p>One thing I want to ask is genre fiction&#8217;s ability to show Truth.  Many have speak of how genre fiction can be a place for dialogue, a place for discussion, and a place for brand new ideas to emerge.</p>
<p>But do these ideas have merit, do they show us some Truth about ourselves as citizens of our society or as human beings?  Where we are, where we should be going?  Are they trying to remove barriers between men and women, or trying to define what it means to be a woman, alone, in relation to, and in relationships with, men?</p>
<p>Do genre books, and films for that matter, simply give us questions to come up with our own ideas or stake a claim about a certain Truth?  Either way, we are left to decide our own answers, but the first gives you nothing but the question you already came with.</p>
<p>On the question of gender, I must say that I&#8217;m a fan of feisty girls, but one must always wonder what certain authors are trying to do.  Is the purpose of a given author to show that women are no different from men?  What a horrible thing to say!  Women have their own nature which distinguish them from men, otherwise what does it mean to be a woman?</p>
<p>While I think he gets blurry on certain matters, Joss Whedon&#8217;s Buffy is a perfect example of a woman trying to be a woman.  There is no &#8220;I&#8217;m no different from you.&#8221;  She is a woman succeeding in being a hero, which is a whole different thing to say.</p>
<p>Thoughts, comments, bashings?</p>
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		<title>By: Amy</title>
		<link>http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2008/12/more-thoughts-on-angry-chicks-in-leather/comment-page-1/#comment-55377</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:49:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/?p=927#comment-55377</guid>
		<description>I read your essay and thought it rocked. It was an examination of the underlying social issues/problems that the books investigate and its place in our current society. Scifi and fantasy - and especially the urban fantasy that you discussed - can truly examine these issues in a thought-provoking and entertaining way; their popularity and the cultural backlash demonstrates this clearly, as do the comments in your original essay. I was quite surprised at the vehemence with which some made their clearly ad hominim attacks against you. Argue the full point, not the essayist. It&#039;s so frustrating, but as you said, they made your point clearly. Thanks for your work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read your essay and thought it rocked. It was an examination of the underlying social issues/problems that the books investigate and its place in our current society. Scifi and fantasy &#8211; and especially the urban fantasy that you discussed &#8211; can truly examine these issues in a thought-provoking and entertaining way; their popularity and the cultural backlash demonstrates this clearly, as do the comments in your original essay. I was quite surprised at the vehemence with which some made their clearly ad hominim attacks against you. Argue the full point, not the essayist. It&#8217;s so frustrating, but as you said, they made your point clearly. Thanks for your work.</p>
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		<title>By: Megan</title>
		<link>http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2008/12/more-thoughts-on-angry-chicks-in-leather/comment-page-1/#comment-55376</link>
		<dc:creator>Megan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/?p=927#comment-55376</guid>
		<description>Lilith:

I liked reading your essay, and also reading the reactions to it. Something that blurs the lines always engenders controversy, and especially when you are setting up male/female comparisons. Whatev. I agree that UF, as you write it, comes from noir, not romance or paranormal. Maybe that&#039;s why I like it so much? Imagine if Chandler or Cain or god, Thompson had written paranormal noir. Cool beans. Good food for thought (not the beans).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lilith:</p>
<p>I liked reading your essay, and also reading the reactions to it. Something that blurs the lines always engenders controversy, and especially when you are setting up male/female comparisons. Whatev. I agree that UF, as you write it, comes from noir, not romance or paranormal. Maybe that&#8217;s why I like it so much? Imagine if Chandler or Cain or god, Thompson had written paranormal noir. Cool beans. Good food for thought (not the beans).</p>
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		<title>By: Jen</title>
		<link>http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2008/12/more-thoughts-on-angry-chicks-in-leather/comment-page-1/#comment-55375</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:15:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/?p=927#comment-55375</guid>
		<description>I saw your article, read it and loved it. So, I was very surprised to continue reading and see the harsh comments. Seemingly from all men. I guess I shouldn&#039;t be surprised, but I didn&#039;t realize how much these ass-kicking heroine UFs were looked down on these days. 

The comments only confirmed one of the points in your article--that this genre is considered lowbrow and apparently trashy romance only to be enjoyed by females wanting wish-fulfillment fantasies.

And that&#039;s just silly.

I was also amused by how many of the commenters admitted to not having read a single UF title yet they were perfectly fine with tearing it down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw your article, read it and loved it. So, I was very surprised to continue reading and see the harsh comments. Seemingly from all men. I guess I shouldn&#8217;t be surprised, but I didn&#8217;t realize how much these ass-kicking heroine UFs were looked down on these days. </p>
<p>The comments only confirmed one of the points in your article&#8211;that this genre is considered lowbrow and apparently trashy romance only to be enjoyed by females wanting wish-fulfillment fantasies.</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s just silly.</p>
<p>I was also amused by how many of the commenters admitted to not having read a single UF title yet they were perfectly fine with tearing it down.</p>
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		<title>By: More Angry Chics in Leather</title>
		<link>http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2008/12/more-thoughts-on-angry-chicks-in-leather/comment-page-1/#comment-55374</link>
		<dc:creator>More Angry Chics in Leather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/?p=927#comment-55374</guid>
		<description>[...] [read here] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] [read here] [...]</p>
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