Comments on: The Naming Of The Known http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2007/02/the-naming-of-the-known/#utm_source=feed&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=feed Bird of Ill Repute Tue, 27 Jul 2010 19:07:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Jeff http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2007/02/the-naming-of-the-known/comment-page-1/#comment-55229 Jeff Fri, 14 Nov 2008 06:13:04 +0000 http://www.lilithsaintcrow.net/journal/index.php/2007/02/27/the-naming-of-the-known/#comment-55229 Hi Lili, This is the third time I've tried emailing you comments. I don't know if society views women as brood mares any more than they view men as more than sperm donors. Of course who "society" is, is a matter of debate, if you believe Radcliff-Browne about the origina of super-culture. Why don't you call, and we'll have a couple of stiff drinks and arm wrestle over who's the worst victim. Jeff Hi Lili,

This is the third time I’ve tried emailing you comments. I don’t know if society views women as brood mares any more than they view men as more than sperm donors. Of course who “society” is, is a matter of debate, if you believe Radcliff-Browne about the origina of super-culture. Why don’t you call, and we’ll have a couple of stiff drinks and arm wrestle over who’s the worst victim.

Jeff

]]> By: Merry http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2007/02/the-naming-of-the-known/comment-page-1/#comment-4443 Merry Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:09:22 +0000 http://www.lilithsaintcrow.net/journal/index.php/2007/02/27/the-naming-of-the-known/#comment-4443 I am a NASCAR tartlet I admit it. I never would have thought I'd love a sport that was all about turning left, but love it I do. And I guess I don't agree that NASCAR portrays women in a negative way. Because how can they portray women in any way when there have been very few female drivers to portray in any light. Open wheel has Danica Patrick who has won some races and gotten some acclaim and mostly for the fact that she is a hot woman. But heck she gets paid. The more notoreity she gets, the more sponsors she gets, and the more money she makes. However, that is the standard for ALL drivers. Dale Earnhardt Jr does the same thing. He's a good looking fellow with all the southern charm just oozing from his strawberry blonde head, and plenty of the women fans, drool over his red jumpsuited self. And I don't agree that NASCAR drivers are a bunch of redneck buffoons, a lot of the drivers have degrees in engineering so that they don't just drive fast and turn left, they know their cars and how to drive them. But having someone a part of NASCAR in the romance shouldn't change a thing. If you love romance, you'll love it. Janet Evanovich's Alexandra Barnaby series has a NASCAR driver as the hero, yet, he's not the one with brains, he is pretty much the brawn and even that can be debated. Barney is the one who likes to play around inside an engine, and she's the one that I feel has the brains. So it depends on how the author's view NASCAR drivers and how they write these stories. It is the author that creates the characters after all, you can take from real life, but ultimately it boils down to how an author feels towards their characters. So all I have to say is Crank in Up! And give me some characters that I will fall in love with, whether they be vamps, were's, demons, or NASCAR drivers. As long as they compel me, I will read them. I am a NASCAR tartlet I admit it. I never would have thought I’d love a sport that was all about turning left, but love it I do. And I guess I don’t agree that NASCAR portrays women in a negative way. Because how can they portray women in any way when there have been very few female drivers to portray in any light. Open wheel has Danica Patrick who has won some races and gotten some acclaim and mostly for the fact that she is a hot woman. But heck she gets paid. The more notoreity she gets, the more sponsors she gets, and the more money she makes. However, that is the standard for ALL drivers. Dale Earnhardt Jr does the same thing. He’s a good looking fellow with all the southern charm just oozing from his strawberry blonde head, and plenty of the women fans, drool over his red jumpsuited self. And I don’t agree that NASCAR drivers are a bunch of redneck buffoons, a lot of the drivers have degrees in engineering so that they don’t just drive fast and turn left, they know their cars and how to drive them.
But having someone a part of NASCAR in the romance shouldn’t change a thing. If you love romance, you’ll love it. Janet Evanovich’s Alexandra Barnaby series has a NASCAR driver as the hero, yet, he’s not the one with brains, he is pretty much the brawn and even that can be debated. Barney is the one who likes to play around inside an engine, and she’s the one that I feel has the brains. So it depends on how the author’s view NASCAR drivers and how they write these stories. It is the author that creates the characters after all, you can take from real life, but ultimately it boils down to how an author feels towards their characters.
So all I have to say is Crank in Up! And give me some characters that I will fall in love with, whether they be vamps, were’s, demons, or NASCAR drivers. As long as they compel me, I will read them.

]]> By: Lassar Dearghdarra http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2007/02/the-naming-of-the-known/comment-page-1/#comment-4399 Lassar Dearghdarra Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:20:22 +0000 http://www.lilithsaintcrow.net/journal/index.php/2007/02/27/the-naming-of-the-known/#comment-4399 Interesting points, and I want to touch a little more on AV's 'wish fulfillment' factor. We are raised to believe, despite whatever our parents ( or grandparents) did in the sixties, that marriage is the ultimate goal. Too many women get married and find that after the honeymoon is over, that their marriage does not meet their emotional needs. Divorce is not a stigma any longer, but it is difficult choice to make. One that does not come with any guarantees that life will be better. Whether there are children to consider or financial issues (the house, who moves out, ect) divorce is a scary business, and pushing for one just because your husband has forgotten that foreplay is more than rolling over, or doesn't roll over at all anymore, just doesn't seem worth it. So we live an exciting new relationship with our heroine, one that ends with the marriage we thought we were getting. And we can have our fantasy as many ways as there are titles on the booksellers' shelves. There's a reason why 52% of all new book sales monthly are Romance. There are a lot of emotionally and sexually dissatisfied women out there. Oh yes, I definately think series romance novels are a form of emotional placebo. Do I think that's all they are? Hell no. Not anymore. But I've babbled through my lunch break. Must get back to playing with hot metal. Lassar P.S. As to Shamhat, I find it entertaining that the translations always call her 'the harlot Shamhat' every time she is mentioned. They don't call Enkidu 'the hairy barbarian Enkidu'... Double standard, or just that all the little manly gods forfend that you should focus on the fact that it took one woman to do what a bunch of men couldn't? Interesting points, and I want to touch a little more on AV’s ‘wish fulfillment’ factor. We are raised to believe, despite whatever our parents ( or grandparents) did in the sixties, that marriage is the ultimate goal. Too many women get married and find that after the honeymoon is over, that their marriage does not meet their emotional needs.
Divorce is not a stigma any longer, but it is difficult choice to make. One that does not come with any guarantees that life will be better. Whether there are children to consider or financial issues (the house, who moves out, ect) divorce is a scary business, and pushing for one just because your husband has forgotten that foreplay is more than rolling over, or doesn’t roll over at all anymore, just doesn’t seem worth it.
So we live an exciting new relationship with our heroine, one that ends with the marriage we thought we were getting. And we can have our fantasy as many ways as there are titles on the booksellers’ shelves. There’s a reason why 52% of all new book sales monthly are Romance. There are a lot of emotionally and sexually dissatisfied women out there.

Oh yes, I definately think series romance novels are a form of emotional placebo.

Do I think that’s all they are? Hell no. Not anymore. But I’ve babbled through my lunch break. Must get back to playing with hot metal.

Lassar

P.S. As to Shamhat, I find it entertaining that the translations always call her ‘the harlot Shamhat’ every time she is mentioned. They don’t call Enkidu ‘the hairy barbarian Enkidu’… Double standard, or just that all the little manly gods forfend that you should focus on the fact that it took one woman to do what a bunch of men couldn’t?

]]> By: Dee Savoy http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2007/02/the-naming-of-the-known/comment-page-1/#comment-4360 Dee Savoy Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:47:57 +0000 http://www.lilithsaintcrow.net/journal/index.php/2007/02/27/the-naming-of-the-known/#comment-4360 Hi Lilith, Disagree, disagree. For me, misogyny in romance is just plain misogyny. We do live in a patriarchal society, but please tell me how creating a thirty-five year old sex-therapist virgin character does anything to counteract this. How about writing about a thirty-five year old sex therapist (who doesn't look like Dr. Ruth's little sister) who is competent, though worldly in sexual matters, knows what she wants and isn't afraid to go toe to toe with the alpha guy in the next office, who, incidentally, doesn't think she's a slut cause she's done it before she laid eyes on him? How about presenting an idea of women that is both real and relevant? Your comments led me to do a lot of thinking (and blogging). Thanks for the commentary. Hi Lilith,

Disagree, disagree. For me, misogyny in romance is just plain misogyny. We do live in a patriarchal society, but please tell me how creating a thirty-five year old sex-therapist virgin character does anything to counteract this. How about writing about a thirty-five year old sex therapist (who doesn’t look like Dr. Ruth’s little sister) who is competent, though worldly in sexual matters, knows what she wants and isn’t afraid to go toe to toe with the alpha guy in the next office, who, incidentally, doesn’t think she’s a slut cause she’s done it before she laid eyes on him? How about presenting an idea of women that is both real and relevant?

Your comments led me to do a lot of thinking (and blogging). Thanks for the commentary.

]]> By: bettie http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2007/02/the-naming-of-the-known/comment-page-1/#comment-4255 bettie Fri, 02 Mar 2007 05:12:23 +0000 http://www.lilithsaintcrow.net/journal/index.php/2007/02/27/the-naming-of-the-known/#comment-4255 Good post! And I'm not just saying that because I totally agree with you. I've long thought the trend for super-alpha heroes was an exploration of the truth that most women know, but few openly discuss: loving the wrong man can kill you. The majority of female homicide victims are the wives or intimate acquaintances of their killers. And all questions of domestic abuse and violence aside, women who don't marry are healthier and live longer. Is it any wonder the stories women write and purchase for themselves so often feature deadly, monstrous, slutty men tamed by love? Good post! And I’m not just saying that because I totally agree with you. I’ve long thought the trend for super-alpha heroes was an exploration of the truth that most women know, but few openly discuss: loving the wrong man can kill you.

The majority of female homicide victims are the wives or intimate acquaintances of their killers. And all questions of domestic abuse and violence aside, women who don’t marry are healthier and live longer.
Is it any wonder the stories women write and purchase for themselves so often feature deadly, monstrous, slutty men tamed by love?

]]> By: AV http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2007/02/the-naming-of-the-known/comment-page-1/#comment-4244 AV Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:59:04 +0000 http://www.lilithsaintcrow.net/journal/index.php/2007/02/27/the-naming-of-the-known/#comment-4244 Excellent post :-) I've long thought that romance was a form of inoculation against dissatisfaction from social conditioning and that it is increasingly taking on a lottery mentality -- that the boar/bore you married may turn out to be the rich, sensitive, successful man or he may conveniently die and you'll met the real man of your dreams at his funeral or on your way home from picking up the life insurance policy proceeds. It quietly tells us to be complacent -- to bank on wish fulfillment without taking our own steps at liberation. Excellent post :-)

I’ve long thought that romance was a form of inoculation against dissatisfaction from social conditioning and that it is increasingly taking on a lottery mentality — that the boar/bore you married may turn out to be the rich, sensitive, successful man or he may conveniently die and you’ll met the real man of your dreams at his funeral or on your way home from picking up the life insurance policy proceeds. It quietly tells us to be complacent — to bank on wish fulfillment without taking our own steps at liberation.

]]> By: Chris http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2007/02/the-naming-of-the-known/comment-page-1/#comment-4226 Chris Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:38:11 +0000 http://www.lilithsaintcrow.net/journal/index.php/2007/02/27/the-naming-of-the-known/#comment-4226 Hi.......I think you have a point. In all those books by the end the male has shifed his perspective through the overwhelming love of his one true love, etc. Also as you read these books you may go through a time where you read a certain style & then one day you realize that it annoys you to no end or that you spend too much time booing a character. What it means that I like books with bite & mayhem....I will not even begin to delve into. As we go so does our appreciation of the possibilities (all of them) & just because we may like to peruse it on paper does not mean we would like to live it. There have been many a character that were right for each other but no where near being right for me. Maybe if I hadn't met them (virtually) then maybe I would have been more willing to try out that relationship in real life. Who knows. Thankfully we have choices even when it seems we do not. Hi…….I think you have a point. In all those books by the end the male has shifed his perspective through the overwhelming love of his one true love, etc. Also as you read these books you may go through a time where you read a certain style & then one day you realize that it annoys you to no end or that you spend too much time booing a character.

What it means that I like books with bite & mayhem….I will not even begin to delve into.

As we go so does our appreciation of the possibilities (all of them) & just because we may like to peruse it on paper does not mean we would like to live it. There have been many a character that were right for each other but no where near being right for me. Maybe if I hadn’t met them (virtually) then maybe I would have been more willing to try out that relationship in real life. Who knows.

Thankfully we have choices even when it seems we do not.

]]> By: Anne Shelstein http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2007/02/the-naming-of-the-known/comment-page-1/#comment-4211 Anne Shelstein Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:19:32 +0000 http://www.lilithsaintcrow.net/journal/index.php/2007/02/27/the-naming-of-the-known/#comment-4211 Romance novels aka lust in the dust aka bodice rippers: schlock is schlock. I get 2nd hand novels to find new writers (I'd rather read a book than housekeep, sigh, and it shows). I feel sorry for the trees hacked down for that pulp, about the only thing the they are good for is target practice...skip the 22 and give it the Glock. I like my men to have a brain between their ears as for the dangly bits? Well, I'm not Mae West and I sure don't need a stud muffin if that's all he's got! When I bang my butt against the butt of my male cohert, I know he's passed his gun range qualifiers and can think more about survival than about how to "protect" me. That kind of idiocy/idiot gets tossed out on the karate mat. Romance novels are a slam to real people, both men and women. There is so much more to life. I thought the days of wham bam, thank you ma'm were over. Time to shred another romance novel for the hamster cage. Romance novels aka lust in the dust aka bodice rippers: schlock is schlock. I get 2nd hand novels to find new writers (I’d rather read a book than housekeep, sigh, and it shows). I feel sorry for the trees hacked down for that pulp, about the only thing the they are good for is target practice…skip the 22 and give it the Glock. I like my men to have a brain between their ears as for the dangly bits? Well, I’m not Mae West and I sure don’t need a stud muffin if that’s all he’s got!

When I bang my butt against the butt of my male cohert, I know he’s passed his gun range qualifiers and can think more about survival than about how to “protect” me. That kind of idiocy/idiot gets tossed out on the karate mat.

Romance novels are a slam to real people, both men and women. There is so much more to life. I thought the days of wham bam, thank you ma’m were over.

Time to shred another romance novel for the hamster cage.

]]> By: bam http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2007/02/the-naming-of-the-known/comment-page-1/#comment-4182 bam Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:23:29 +0000 http://www.lilithsaintcrow.net/journal/index.php/2007/02/27/the-naming-of-the-known/#comment-4182 Hey, Queen o' mine, have you seen this? http://redwyne.com/2007/02/nascar-harlequin-style.html/ Hey, Queen o’ mine, have you seen this?

http://redwyne.com/2007/02/nascar-harlequin-style.html/

]]> By: Meljean Brook http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/2007/02/the-naming-of-the-known/comment-page-1/#comment-4173 Meljean Brook Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:28:39 +0000 http://www.lilithsaintcrow.net/journal/index.php/2007/02/27/the-naming-of-the-known/#comment-4173 *delurking* I love this turn on it -- and I'm just fly-by posting because I've got to get something out in the next hour (so why am I reading a blog post, one might ask, but won't) ... but I think (hope?) you're right. And I hate to think the HEA and sexual empowerment that we see in romance novels is a function of that widespread misogyny, and all of the readers and writers just participating in it (although maybe some do). Certainly it can be interpreted that way on a very simplistic level ("it just supports the idea that women need a man to be happy, blah blah") but that seems to disregard the journey of the novel, and focuses only on the result (again, in a simplistic manner). *delurking* I love this turn on it — and I’m just fly-by posting because I’ve got to get something out in the next hour (so why am I reading a blog post, one might ask, but won’t) … but I think (hope?) you’re right. And I hate to think the HEA and sexual empowerment that we see in romance novels is a function of that widespread misogyny, and all of the readers and writers just participating in it (although maybe some do). Certainly it can be interpreted that way on a very simplistic level (“it just supports the idea that women need a man to be happy, blah blah”) but that seems to disregard the journey of the novel, and focuses only on the result (again, in a simplistic manner).

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